Transkript

00:00:00: [Music]

00:00:08: Francesco Bonfio has been the CEO of the Gaia X project until last year

00:00:12: and has founded now a new company called Dynamo.

00:00:15: At this year's Iona Summit, Francesco gave a talk called

00:00:18: "A True European Cloud Alternative". Welcome Francesco.

00:00:21: Thank you Andreas, thank you for having me.

00:00:24: So Francesco, do we need a European Cloud Alternative?

00:00:27: Yes, of course, because without saying we need it now more than ever

00:00:32: and we need it for two reasons.

00:00:35: The first is that we don't get it yet, nobody actually realized

00:00:40: a true European alternative to the cloud service providers

00:00:45: that nowadays are very few, we can count them on three fingers

00:00:50: and the second reason is that cloud is the foundation of data

00:00:56: economy and data economy is the foundation of the future of our economy.

00:01:01: So there cannot be any future if we lose control on such a critical infrastructure.

00:01:08: Any economy has a critical infrastructure.

00:01:11: The old economy used to have the energy grid, the new economy has the data grid

00:01:16: if you want and cloud is the data grid.

00:01:18: So we cannot live without at least trying to build our own independence on the cloud.

00:01:27: A term that is often used in this context is "data sovereignty".

00:01:31: Why is this so important and maybe what does data sovereignty mean for you personally?

00:01:37: Sovereignty is a political term and actually it stands for the ability

00:01:43: to apply your own rules in your own sovereign territories.

00:01:47: And the reason why we talk about digital sovereignty is that

00:01:50: digital can actually overcome any ability to apply your political rights,

00:01:55: your own rules because digital is pervasive and the owners of digital platforms

00:02:03: are becoming so big that they are bigger in terms of economical power

00:02:08: or customers than the GDP or the citizens of any European government, for example.

00:02:16: And that's why every government has got digital sovereignty in their agenda.

00:02:21: But strictly speaking, technology is not about sovereignty,

00:02:24: it's about controllability, transparency and interoperability.

00:02:28: So my own definition of sovereignty is you can be sovereign on a technology platform

00:02:33: if that platform is transparent so you see how it works,

00:02:38: you see where your data are being handled, controllable so you can take decisions

00:02:44: and not let in the platform decide for you, for example, where your data are being transferred to

00:02:50: and interoperable in such a way you are not locked in, you are not forced to stay in that platform

00:02:57: but you can move your data freely to any other platform.

00:03:01: The combination of transparency, controllability and interoperability

00:03:05: to mean equals to sovereignty when it relates to technology.

00:03:10: One important project of course that focused on this kind of digital sovereignty

00:03:15: from the European perspective was of course GAIAX, which you headed for a couple of years.

00:03:19: So how do you look back at your time at GAIAX?

00:03:22: Yes, actually I joined GAIAX at the end of 2020 and I headed it until last year.

00:03:29: So it was three years, pretty intense and in a nutshell I believe GAIAX was a necessary initiative

00:03:38: to increase the awareness of everyone including the public opinion on the need to regain control

00:03:45: of the technology and gain sovereignty in the way that was defined in it.

00:03:50: We also succeeded in defining again, sovereignty as something that you can achieve only through trust.

00:03:59: In other words, on the one side the problem is not having platform that you can control

00:04:05: but on the other side the problem is that the companies are not using those platforms.

00:04:11: So there is a problem of adoption and the question why those platforms are not adopted

00:04:16: it is because of the lack of trust and trust again relates to the capability to see transparently

00:04:24: to control and to have the interoperability of those services that you need.

00:04:29: So we decided to focus on achieving trust and we decided that trust was achieved through transparency

00:04:38: and in order to achieve transparency we defined a framework of trust made of a set of rules

00:04:45: and of technology components we call them the trust engine capable to verify the compliance to those rules.

00:04:54: So for the very first time GAIAX translated a very abstract concept like digital sovereignty

00:05:01: into something tangible and measurable objectively through technology so not biased or conditioned by any human being.

00:05:09: Now if I have to go back and this was my claim from the beginning I always said that the future of Europe

00:05:16: for what concerns cloud and data platforms cannot be just in the definition of common standards

00:05:23: and cannot be just in the definition of a thin tank where we discuss and debate on the future of Europe.

00:05:31: We must act as concretely as possible likewise we did for the Airbus so we need we need it

00:05:42: and we still need an Airbus of the cloud and in my age in GAIAX I said from the very early phase

00:05:50: that GAIAX should have become one day split in two parts one remaining foundation and association

00:05:58: talking about common standards but another part becoming an operating company acting in the market

00:06:06: to implement those standards and implement services based on those standards most importantly

00:06:14: implementing a federation of providers supporting those standards.

00:06:20: That was I think the part that GAIAX was not capable to drive because unfortunately as a foundation

00:06:26: as a known for profit association you cannot operate in the market you cannot create any advantage for any member

00:06:33: you cannot create any distinction between European and non-European members so there is a lot of a list of limitations

00:06:39: that prevent an association from doing that but if I go back to the ages of Airbus

00:06:45: Airbus was built exactly for the same reason Europe understood the power and importance of the aerospace industry

00:06:52: decided that we could not be slave of the American aerospace industry of Boeing and Macdonald Douglas

00:06:58: first started with an association because Airbus was started as a foundation as an association

00:07:04: but all of a sudden realized that this had to turn into something a factory capable to build aircrafts

00:07:11: and this is when Europe was capable to invest public money in supporting the creation of a consortium

00:07:18: and creating aircrafts that then were successful in the global market.

00:07:24: I think this is what has to happen and that's exactly what I'm trying to do in very humble and small terms with Dynamo

00:07:31: but I just have to step off and try to make it happen in very small terms to show if you want to seed a plant in the ground

00:07:40: and show that something like a federation can be done and can inject a new economical model

00:07:48: but can become as big maybe even bigger than the monopolism of the aerospace industry has to take.

00:07:55: We come back to this idea of a federation of European providers in a minute

00:07:59: but maybe one last thought about GaiaX and the question there was a lot of concern

00:08:03: when the hyperscalers that you just mentioned were allowed to join GaiaX.

00:08:07: What do you think was this a necessary step? Was this a good step for GaiaX?

00:08:13: I mean we're all talking about multi-cloud platforms, multi-cloud strategies.

00:08:17: What did this mean for this whole project?

00:08:19: Yeah, at the time this decision was very much debated.

00:08:23: My personal take is that this was the right decision for a foundation, so for the association of GaiaX

00:08:31: because if you want to build something that is competitive in the global market

00:08:35: and that's what the European cloud has to be, it's not just for Europe, it has to be competitive in the global market

00:08:40: then you have to act globally.

00:08:42: So involving non-European players I think was a good idea as long as their power was limited

00:08:49: and this was very well defined in the statutes of GaiaX because they cannot sit in the board of GaiaX.

00:08:55: Actually some of the companies sitting in the board, they have strong relationship with hyperscalers

00:09:01: so they ended up being representing indirectly the interests of non-European cloud service providers

00:09:08: and this was a kind of a problem but it is the same problem that you find at the table of politics

00:09:14: for example the discussion of the data act or the data governance act or the AI act

00:09:20: even though there is no American companies sitting there, you may know well that there were conflicts

00:09:27: when Europe was trying to introduce restrictive measures that would reduce the superpower of hyperscalers

00:09:34: so this is part of the political dimension of GaiaX.

00:09:37: When it gets to, let me say, the strategy, my idea and my strategy in GaiaX was to build something that was needed by the market

00:09:46: was non-existing and being the first doing it in a non-competitive way

00:09:53: and actually this idea of the trust framework was pretty smart because we didn't say

00:09:58: you bad American boys cannot play with us, not at all, we simply said if you want to play with us

00:10:04: please show us the characteristics of your services in a transparent way

00:10:08: so it was a totally inclusive approach and we could not be accused to be discriminatory or against the competition law

00:10:17: so I think it was a very good decision in political terms

00:10:21: I do understand that the public opinion would hope into let's fight just for us and keep them outside

00:10:29: but this is not the way to win, it takes longer

00:10:32: but again, I think that the part that was missing was acting in the market to make something happen

00:10:40: and not the fact that in an association you can have multiple voices

00:10:44: that's perfectly fine, the part missing was having an execution into the market to build something different

00:10:51: and I think that is still missing

00:10:54: actually I am so convinced of this theory that if I look back at what happened when I started communicating

00:11:02: that our approach was inclusive and based on transparency

00:11:05: all the hyperscalers, and this is not me saying it, if you go back to where reports from big American analysts saying that

00:11:12: yes, despite GIAX is late, we need to admit that they were successful in making the hyperscalers move

00:11:21: and come to Europe to explain how they can be sovereign

00:11:25: and nowadays you see that there is no single hyperscaler not having their own sovereign cloud offering

00:11:32: everyone means something different, but they have the same title

00:11:36: so I think this was a success and they were faster and more productive in writing the ways of sovereignty and implemented the wrong offering

00:11:45: still, we were late as Europeans and we didn't act during the same

00:11:50: I can confirm that, I was two weeks ago at the smart country convention in Berlin

00:11:54: the biggest German convention about IT in the political sphere

00:11:58: and there basically at every booth you could read data sovereignty being a European or an American provider

00:12:05: so that definitely has become mainstream

00:12:07: talking about execution and about federated service, I think that's really the main idea behind your new company Dynamo

00:12:13: at the Ayano Summit, if I remember correctly you called it a virtual cloud service provider

00:12:18: so what exactly is Dynamo?

00:12:20: Yeah, I use that definition because it's interesting, somebody says that

00:12:24: okay, so everybody tries to classify you when you do something, but Dynamo is pretty new

00:12:29: so Dynamo is not just a directory of existing services published on a single webpage

00:12:36: Dynamo is not just a commercial aggregator of multiple suppliers deciding to partner together

00:12:44: Dynamo is a real platform of services that automate all you need to act in a seamless way

00:12:52: together with the other partners of the same ecosystem

00:12:55: likewise, you were part of the same company

00:12:58: so if you have a company delivering services in one territory

00:13:04: and another one delivering services in another territory

00:13:07: and they get acquired by a third company and all the three companies become one

00:13:13: so Dynamo is an acquired as to go through a lot of work to integrate the catalogs, marketplaces, the sales processes

00:13:22: the cloud management platforms, the order management systems

00:13:26: so all these things are automated through the platform of Dynamo

00:13:31: in such a way every participant can join Dynamo and resell anybody else's solution

00:13:38: likewise, it was their solution

00:13:40: it's a very simple concept, but it doesn't exist in the market

00:13:43: because Dynamo does not sell directly to the end customers of Ionos

00:13:49: Dynamo enables Ionos to resell services from Aruba or vice versa

00:13:55: but Ionos will have its own catalog, its own marketplace that will be expanded and answered, augmented by Dynamo

00:14:04: and we'll be able to reach a broader market, maybe reach a new market where it's not present

00:14:10: and without using anything, so you continue to be independent and autonomous

00:14:15: but all of a sudden your portfolio becomes bigger because it's enriched by the portfolio of all the other participants

00:14:22: so it's a real integration platform that makes the operations

00:14:26: on the qualification of participants from the contractualization of the partnership

00:14:32: from the order management down to the provisioning of the services

00:14:36: connecting to the multiple technological platforms of the multiple suppliers

00:14:41: completely seamless to the participants

00:14:44: that way we remove the burden of finding the right partner to expand and ask your solutions when you don't have it

00:14:52: also we remove the burden of compliance because we automate the process of compliance against the European regulation

00:14:58: and here is where for example I adopt again the GAIA X engine, expanding it to make further verifications

00:15:05: and we automate also the provisioning connecting directly to the platform of Ionos, the platform of Aruba, the platform of G-Gas, the platform of Ionos

00:15:14: demanding suppliers that we are already working in such a way

00:15:17: you push the button and send. And this is not happening in a

00:15:21: normal marketplace, in a B2C marketplace, we are not B2C,

00:15:25: we are B2B. This is not happening in most of the

00:15:30: marketplaces that are not handling the B2B processes. None of

00:15:34: the marketplaces integrate with the cloud management platforms

00:15:38: of their providers. And the biggest marketplaces are just for

00:15:42: one single provider. So, of course, if you look at the

00:15:46: marketplace of Microsoft is something similar to what we

00:15:50: are doing with Dynamo, but it's coherent because it's made of

00:15:53: only Microsoft services. If Microsoft should do something

00:15:56: like this, integrating many other providers, it would be a

00:15:59: nightmare. We're trying to solve this nightmare and to create an

00:16:02: open ecosystem where any European participant, so it must be

00:16:06: a European company, it must be a European provider of any type

00:16:10: of cloud service can be yes, yes, it must be provided from

00:16:15: within the European territory. Anyone of them can join small,

00:16:19: large companies, startups doesn't matter as long as they are

00:16:23: European and they qualify against these principles, they can

00:16:26: join this ecosystem and anybody offering a service can

00:16:30: resell all services offered by the others. Nothing to lose,

00:16:35: nothing to gain. In other words, it's a big network of

00:16:38: resellers. And this is very important because the business

00:16:42: model of the Americans, the IPA scalars is very largely based

00:16:46: on indirect sales compared to the Europeans, which are very much

00:16:51: based on direct sales. So the portion of sales of the European

00:16:55: cloud service provider is credit predominantly direct sales.

00:16:59: Whilst the sales of the Americans is almost exclusively

00:17:03: indirect sales through their network of partners. And we need

00:17:07: to replicate the same model otherwise Europe will never

00:17:10: scale the volumes of the IPA scalars, not just single company

00:17:14: that they've become big, they have become big through the

00:17:17: network of their partners. We don't have such a network of

00:17:19: partners.

00:17:20: Building such a platform is of course a first step, but you

00:17:22: mentioned you wanted to have a seamless integration with the

00:17:25: push of a button. But I guess most of these providers still

00:17:28: have kind of individual APIs, individual front ends. So how do

00:17:32: you get to interoperate these services together?

00:17:35: That's a very good question. We have embedded a layer of

00:17:38: abstraction on top of the existing technology platform. I

00:17:42: will not get into the technical detail, but we are embedding a

00:17:46: list of technologies to virtualize the infrastructure layer,

00:17:50: for example, which is the most complex, of course, but as well

00:17:53: to compose services, for example, assess onto a yes. On the

00:17:57: virtualization, we basically can define a recipe to instantiate

00:18:03: let's say a virtual machine or a Kubernetes cluster, and then

00:18:07: act on many different specific platforms of the different

00:18:12: providers, activating their different APIs. So nowadays, we

00:18:17: have one recipe, one proxy, let me say that activate that recipe

00:18:22: implementation onto multiple APIs corresponding to the multiple

00:18:26: supplier cloud management platforms. But the good news is

00:18:30: that the companies that we are talking to, they like the idea

00:18:34: of Dynamo, but they also like it to the point they understand

00:18:38: that maybe this is an opportunity for them to join up and start

00:18:42: thinking about defining common APIs for the future. When this

00:18:47: will happen, of course, we will have to do some rework, but it

00:18:50: will be much better. On the other side, we could not wait for

00:18:53: this to happen before starting. So yes, it's quite of an effort

00:18:56: today. But we are happy to do it because we know that this

00:19:00: will demonstrate the many companies that maybe the final

00:19:03: common APIs will be a further win-win. At that point, we will

00:19:07: simply adapt to the new common API that I hope will come out

00:19:10: soon.

00:19:10: You mentioned Ayonos, Aruba as some examples of European cloud

00:19:14: providers. I mean, we're all companies competing with each

00:19:17: other in these markets. So how easy is it for you to bring these

00:19:21: companies at a table?

00:19:22: All these companies are competitors in the market. And

00:19:26: that's absolutely normal and a good thing. The problem is that

00:19:30: all of them share the same challenges. And the biggest

00:19:34: challenge for European cloud service providers today is

00:19:37: survival. In other words, all the European cloud service

00:19:41: provider collectively has lost their market share from 26% in

00:19:47: 2017 to 10% nowadays. So unfortunately, this was a linear

00:19:55: decline. So if you draw the line, you understand that basically

00:19:58: we have another three to five years in the best case of

00:20:03: survival, after which European cloud service provider will

00:20:06: become resellers of non-non-european technologies. A

00:20:09: further proof of this fact is that all the hyperscalers, as you

00:20:13: well know, are buying every single square meter and gigawatt of

00:20:18: data center in Europe. And again, in a few years, it will be

00:20:22: game over. So the CEOs of these European cloud service

00:20:26: providers, the larger ones, the smaller ones, now understand

00:20:32: that it is not a matter of retaining your own small market,

00:20:37: but we need to allow, they need to allow, they need to

00:20:40: collaborate to survive and thrive. So creating a critical

00:20:44: mass to leverage on each other, it's first of all, a tactic to

00:20:49: survive and retain a reasonable share of the market. But then

00:20:53: these collaboration, these federative model can grow faster

00:20:58: than any other merge and acquisition model. At the same

00:21:01: time, even the seed individual companies that want to grow

00:21:05: through acquisitions, they may find in this ecosystem, a lot of

00:21:09: new companies, maybe smaller ones, they can be good targets.

00:21:13: At the same time, the smaller companies, they are possibly

00:21:17: suffering even more at the beginning of this year. Let's

00:21:20: not forget that most of the smaller cloud service providers

00:21:23: I'm talking about the ones with 10 million less revenues a year,

00:21:28: most of them were relying and still are relying on VMware

00:21:33: stacks. So when Broadcom came and threatened them, they had to

00:21:37: face the challenge where, what can I do if my margin shrink and

00:21:42: I have no alternatives to sell other solutions, the risk is

00:21:45: even bigger for more than once. But then if you look at the

00:21:47: startups, we have a very good ecosystem of startups, the report

00:21:52: from Mario Draghi highlighted, we have more than 1800 innovative

00:21:57: startups in Europe now. But where do they go to get the money?

00:22:00: They go over the ocean because they cannot find investors and

00:22:03: they cannot find ecosystem where they can become visible and

00:22:06: grow. If they are attracted by Dynamo, maybe they can partner

00:22:10: with larger, for example, cloud service providers that are

00:22:13: struggling to enrich their portfolio with the innovative

00:22:16: solution. So you see that we can create not only an aggregation

00:22:21: and you should not see the Federation as a way to compete

00:22:26: one another carefully. No, actually, the Federation is a

00:22:30: way to grow together. Everybody will continue to have their own

00:22:33: market, but we grow his market. And you can see your partner in a

00:22:38: Federation like a competitor, or like a reseller, it's up to you.

00:22:43: And I think it's more of a psychological thing. They sell me,

00:22:46: why should I be against them? But yes, but if they sell me, then

00:22:50: it means they are selling me to their customer, but they would

00:22:53: do anyway, because in the end, is the customer deciding it. So

00:22:56: what's the problem? So I think there is a new awareness to

00:22:58: answer your question. So the leadership of these companies

00:23:02: understand that we need to work together in order to survive.

00:23:06: And also, they start to understand that a collaborative

00:23:10: model is not a win-lose, actually, is a win-win. At the same

00:23:14: time, if you work together with others, you can have more eyes

00:23:18: to look at the market. You can understand better what the others

00:23:21: do. You can make more savvy investments in innovation. You can

00:23:25: find easily faster and better partners. So there is no drawbacks.

00:23:31: And honestly, I think that European market is big enough and

00:23:35: fragmented enough in terms of culture, territories, heritage,

00:23:40: relations, historical relationship with the customer

00:23:42: language, that your customers will be happy to continue working

00:23:46: with you. If you look bigger, they would not have an interest

00:23:49: to go and work with somebody in Italy just because they saw

00:23:53: service that you can reserve. They will keep working with you

00:23:56: and you can reserve a service from Italy. And the same will be

00:23:59: true for the Italian customers working with Italian suppliers.

00:24:02: So the companies working together is one thing. You mentioned

00:24:06: that basically every government in Europe has digital

00:24:09: resources on the agenda. But are these governments actually doing

00:24:13: enough? Have they understood the importance, actually? And do

00:24:17: deeds follow the words?

00:24:18: The governments and the European Commission, they

00:24:22: understand the need for federation of suppliers. And the

00:24:27: problem is that this was not implemented in the past five

00:24:30: years since the beginning of the European data strategy

00:24:34: announced by President for the Lion back in 2019. Why this is

00:24:38: not being implemented? Because to do something like this, you

00:24:42: should invest in the market and create an advantage for European

00:24:47: players only. And this is against the competition law, the

00:24:51: antitrust law, and the law of state ads. So believe it or not,

00:24:56: I believe that the key roadblock is our own legislation

00:25:00: preventing Europe to invest on our own assets to invest on our

00:25:05: own industrial companies and preventing us to restrict, let me

00:25:10: say the access of non European subjects to European investments.

00:25:14: But the governments I'm talking to and the institutions I'm

00:25:17: talking to explaining what Dynamo does, all they told me,

00:25:21: thank you, Francesco, please go ahead because this is what we

00:25:24: need, but we simply cannot make it. So my hope is that we I can

00:25:30: be naive. I was telling this to a friend earlier this morning,

00:25:33: but my dream is that Dynamo is seen as a super micro airbus of

00:25:40: the cloud that one day, the institutions, the governments,

00:25:44: the European Commission, see it working and say, maybe this is

00:25:48: a good model, maybe we should invest in it. And I hope this

00:25:51: will have them over the next year. So this is my my hope. And I'm

00:25:55: sure I'm already working with some governments that are trying

00:25:59: to find a way to collaborate with us. Again, the problem is

00:26:03: find a way to support a private initiative. And the key question

00:26:08: is why we are a private initiative. Very simple, we

00:26:10: don't want to be hostage of any law that prevents us from

00:26:14: deciding we want to have just a European ecosystem, deciding

00:26:18: what to do. And we want to go fast because there is no time.

00:26:22: But we want to become something public. Yes, of course, to do

00:26:26: that, I think we need to demonstrate that this model

00:26:28: works. And this is my personal challenge, my personal mission,

00:26:31: I hope we succeed at the least doing something small, but

00:26:35: showing that it can work.

00:26:36: Just a very recent announcement was that Google launched an

00:26:40: open cloud coalition also to lobby the European Parliament. So

00:26:44: I think there's still quite a bit of work to do for the European

00:26:47: providers.

00:26:48: Oh, yes, of course. And this is at the beginning of it. So I'm

00:26:52: not joking, but I keep saying that we are in a war and we

00:26:56: should resist because the tactic that is being put in place in

00:27:01: the field by the American companies is great. So on the

00:27:04: one side, they are lobbying on the political decisions, slowing

00:27:09: down the adoptions of the new acts or diluting, let me say,

00:27:15: the restrictions that those act ask for. On the other side, they

00:27:19: are partnering with the leading governments in Europe,

00:27:22: investing in local regions to show that their cloud can be

00:27:28: adopted as a software stack in a completely European based

00:27:31: company, completely detached from the mother company and

00:27:36: so bright. On another field, they are investing in local

00:27:39: territories, you know, billions and billions to create their

00:27:43: data centers. On another field, they are buying the unicorns

00:27:48: that we are building in Europe. So the Mistral, the Alephalpha,

00:27:53: etc. So to retain the control on innovation. And last but

00:27:59: not least, they are, you know, reaching on their sublime cloud

00:28:03: offering and offering resources for free, free training, free

00:28:08: certification. So this is a very ancient technique. The

00:28:12: Romans used to use it. So when the Romans used it to conquer

00:28:15: territory, they brought the late in over there. So everybody

00:28:19: speak in the same language, everybody's Roman. So how

00:28:22: everybody will speak Google certification, Microsoft

00:28:25: certification. And at that point, you gain the control of

00:28:29: the skills, you gain the control of the new generations of

00:28:32: engineers, you gain the control of the future developments. So the

00:28:35: battle is very broad. And unfortunately, the European cloud

00:28:39: service providers are like, you know, vietcongs spread across

00:28:43: the bush. And we need to, you know, come out by night and try

00:28:47: to collaborate to make very effective attacks here and there

00:28:51: because it's impossible to put together the lobbies, the

00:28:55: politics, the industrial investors like the US is doing. I

00:29:01: think this is not possible. And let's not forget, we are very

00:29:04: close to the American elections. And I think this would be a key

00:29:09: milestone for the future of Europe. If America becomes

00:29:13: stronger in terms of nationalism, Europe will have to ask the

00:29:17: question, how are we going to remain independent economically?

00:29:21: How are we going to protect our industry? How are we going to

00:29:24: protect our data? And if I see Elon Musk, the right hand man of

00:29:29: Donald Trump, I ask myself a question, what is he going to

00:29:33: get back if Trump is a layman? I think we should ask ourselves

00:29:36: the question. I think the future is definitely going to be

00:29:39: driven by data, by data platforms, by cloud platforms, and

00:29:44: Europe should not continue to consider cloud a secondary

00:29:48: priority. It's a primary priority. And there's a lot of

00:29:52: work, right? And we should be more aware we need to work

00:29:55: together collaboratively. Also, politics, industry, civil

00:30:00: society. I'm doing just a small part of I'm doing what I can

00:30:04: do. I'm trying to group together, you know, cloud service

00:30:07: providers. And I think this is a really big effort. But to be

00:30:11: honest, I believe this should be broader and broader and broader.

00:30:13: We should create broader coalitions, bottom up.

00:30:16: Thank you very much Francesco Bonfio.

00:30:19: Grazie.

00:30:21: [Music]

00:30:22: [Music]

00:30:23: (upbeat music)

00:30:26: [BLANK_AUDIO]